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Talk:Hydra (Borderlands)
Varieties Carnage Type Hydra Carnage type hydras have larger AOE damage than the ordinay carnage shotgun making them very effective in killing hordes of enemies I found a Hydra with a clip of 20, is this even possible 14:14, April 17, 2010 (UTC) : Uhhhh, unless you're a soldier that has Overload, no. : Atlas shotguns CAN come with a 13 shot mag though. Found three in the Armory. GnarlyToaster 10:38, July 15, 2010 (UTC) ZPR350 Terrible Hydra "It's like having another soldier on the field!" Roland. '' Why do some Hydras have x10, and others have x12? I dont understand it. LoZ4Ever 05:45, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :material 3 (pearl) gives added projectiles. materials 1&2 do not. 12:18, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :: It's legit. Standard combat shotguns have 9 projectiles, the Hydra adds 3 by default, and if the spread is small enough, the Hunter's prefix will spawn and reduce the projectile count by 2 in exchange for added damage per projectile. None of the Atlas materials add projectiles, they only increase clip size. User's picture is Atlas' material one. 01:51, September 26, 2010 (UTC) :: Well the Hydra Accessory gives -100% spread, making most varieties of the Hydra (except the one above) qualify for the Hunter's prefix. The projectile count works as Nagamarky said. The only versions of the Hydra which will have 12 projectiles are Terrible (with Barrel2 and a lower accuracy) and Pearl (Atlas Material 3, which overrides the Hunter's prefix). But yeah, it's not an awesome gun nevertheless; I guess it could count as a particularly accurate Carnage if it does have the Carnage barrel... Wannas 22:27, October 17, 2010 (UTC) the hydra is probably the worst of the fixed spread shotguns. no element, wide, unwieldy spread, and genraly low fire rate makes it a bad weapon. even the hunter's variety is still bad. I collect rare guns, but this isnt worth the bank slot. It's good cash though, cause it's an Atlas gun. I've found that a lot of atlas guns are worth much less than all the hype they get. One Product User's Review: I found this weapon to be absolutely dire! A mate passed off a level 40+ (43 I believe) hunter's version to me which had a resell value of about 360K, decent scope and altogether looked like a fairly good shottie. I gave it a runout against a Badmutha Freakish Psycho: took about 15 (short range to point blank) rounds to put him down where it usually takes somewhere in the region of 4-8 from my other shotguns. Not good. signed - ''The Masked Editor page is incorrect Hi the max hit of the hydra on its page is incorrect, cause i've just found one that hits 468x12, while farming crawmerax. while the page says it goes up to 447x12. You will need to upload a screenshot of the weapon as proof. The page can then be updated. Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~ or hit the signature button on the top of the edit page. thanks. 11:23, August 10, 2011 (UTC) Joel v G95 12:14, August 10, 2011 (UTC) here are 2 pics that proof it's possible Joel v G95 12:14, August 10, 2011 (UTC) I too, have a 12 projectile hydra. It's in my inventory. 13:51, August 10, 2011 (UTC) "Reduced Spread (-100%)?" As per the title. If that means 100% accuracy/dead center shots, it's a myth. I was literally overjoyed when I finally got one from Crawmerax, but I tried it out and found it's not 100% accurate as the Borderlands rumors say. I will upload a video demonstrating it the next day (it's past midnight where I am as I type this; need sleep). The good news is that Carnage Hydras do benefit from the improved accuracy of Hydras.--Mensahero 16:47, August 13, 2011 (UTC) Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIgfuWsRFus--Mensahero 01:50, August 14, 2011 (UTC) That is one...very inaccurate hydra...the ones I get have reticules where the sides actually overlap each other. 01:52, August 14, 2011 (UTC) The older version of this article says Carnage Hydras have -100% Spread. This is simply not true. And even where there's no such thing as perfect -100% Spread or perfect Accuracy (the terms are used interchangeably in the Accuracy article), the deviation showed in my experiment was far, far greater than 98.7%- the highest Accuracy rating in the game. As such, Carnage Hydras don't disregard their Accuracy but do use them as far as firing rockets are concerned. To report that a Carnage Hydra gets -100% Spread is misleading at least.--Mensahero 12:13, August 14, 2011 (UTC) Hydra weapon mechs: (for clarity upon matters) *Accuracy Minimum: -50%  *Projectile Count: +3 (Pre Add) *' Spread: -100% ' *Damage: +35%  *Cost: +1.8 (Multiplier)  *Rarity: +3  That said the -100% is part of the weapon mechs it does not however means that a weapon is full accurate. It is just a stat affecter. Allow me to explain with the help of GearCalc. A shotgun without the hydra acc.: A shotgun with the hydra acc.: You see the acc. going up from: 45.8 to 72.9? That's the -100% Spread attribute. So the text that was displayed on the Hydra main page was correct info by going the weapon mechs. But you simply misinterpreted as a 100% accuracy mod. I... I am the King! 12:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC) All of which come from 'Gear Calculator', not the game itself. You may understand the -100% Spread actually means a shift from 45.8 to 72.9 because you have Gear Calculator, but to people who simply play Borderlands without Gear Calculator, they only have the stats the game presents in itself and this Wiki. When writing Wiki articles, you're not writing for yourself in language, terminology and mechanics only you yourself understand, but have to write so that anyone and everyone else, casual or hardcore, can understand. That "-100% Spread" remains very misleading, especially in as far as it doesn't reduce Spread completely but modifies the gun by only 27.1 points. If there's no such thing as a perfectly accurate Carnage, then you have to let people know.--Mensahero 12:53, August 14, 2011 (UTC) I agree with you and i see your point about the "mislead" statement. However since more weapon mechanics percentages were in show upon the page and you rewording them to sheer text seemed odd to me since the info displayed was indeed correct. Maybe we can find a impasse where both the -100% accuracy mod and explaination about this mod is given upon the weapon page. I... I am the King! 13:00, August 14, 2011 (UTC) You don't need to show the -100% Accuracy mod. Only the most hardcore of players would be interested in that, and it doesn't really help unless you're a programmer. To the ordinary, casual, "I'm playing for fun" player, what's important is how Carnage Hydras work: not numbers but how the gun performs and how you use it while your controller or keyboard and mouse are in your hands. And the only real difference is this: being a Hydra makes a Carnage more accurate. Maybe not perfectly accurate, but significantly easier to use over much further distances than normal Carnages.--Mensahero 13:06, August 14, 2011 (UTC) Ok you made your point indeed i have to keep the "normal" players in check. I just found it strange as all. Keep it as it is. I just want to make clear that i'm like Nagamarky. I know alot about the games mechanics and i want to share my knowlage. This is however not limited towards gearcalc (don't get the wrong idea). I... I am the King! 13:10, August 14, 2011 (UTC) Woah guys, take it easy people. This is just a misunderstanding on what the "-100% spread" means, which has in fact bothered me for the longest time as well. All of the weapon bonuses such as -100% spread, or +20% damage, are relative to some base number for that type of weapon. The "-100% spread" does not imply an improvement of 27.1 accuracy rating. Let me try to clarify: # Spread is equivalent to accuracy, but it's the inverse. The accuracy rating shown on the item card = 100 - 8.33333 * spread. In the game mechanics, everything uses spread, not accuracy rating. It's only converted to accuracy rating when shown on the item card. # The weapon bonus/penalty (for spread, damage, whatever) is computed as follows: final stat = base stat * (1 + positive bonuses) / (1 + abs(negative bonuses)) ## A positive bonus is one that says "+X%", while a negative bonus is one that has "-Y%". ## The positive bonuses are summed up and put on the numerator of the fraction. The negative bonuses are summed up in absolute value, and put on the denominator of the fraction. ## In the case of "-100% spread", it is a negative bonus. If there are no other modifiers to the spread stat, the positive bonuses are 1 + 0, and negative bonuses are 1 + 1, so the fraction is 1/2. Thus, the spread is halved in this case. In terms of accuracy rating, its means the rating is now half way closer to 100 than it was before. Yes this is really confusing and unintuitive for a "normal" player, but there's really no better way we can write it and still be true to the game's formula. A "-100% spread" means different things in terms of the accuracy rating for different guns, and even different configurations of the same gun. Logisim 17:00, August 14, 2011 (UTC) :Another point: "-100% Spread" is not the actual and final rating on a Carnage Hydra but just a modifier. A player who gets a Carnage Hydra will not be thinking about that hidden and calculated -100% spread but the real performing accuracy of the weapon actually indicated on its card. :I understand the need for precision in any wiki article but we cannot be so specific as to confuse readers in need of information. Our intent will be to be clear and honest but we must be careful that our effect will not be the opposite of that. :This is why in this issue, for modifiers that are applied to many different guns in many different ways, we must work and present numbers and facts that follow the same base and standard: the final ratings actually presented on the weapon cards themselves. Different calculations may go into the stats of a Hydra, a Carnage Hydra, a non-Hydra shotgun and a Sniper Rifle but you can be sure that all of their Accuracy, Damage and Fire Rate stats compare with each other the same way. For example: the shots of a Carnage Hydra with an 80% Accuracy on its card will deviate in exactly the same way (or have the same size reticle) as an SMG with the same Accuracy. :Like writing for all audiences, whether hardcore stat-crunching players or casual "I just wanna have fun" players, we have to do the same in presenting stats and mechanics. We can't ignore modifiers like that -100% Spread but we must also present our info so to be inclusive and applicable to all guns so that readers will not be confused. :This is why I changed the wording on the Carnage Hydra section from "-100% Spread" to "higher accuracy". It more generally applies to all Carnage Hydras without being complicated, matching my own experience with an actual Carnage Hydra. :--Mensahero 04:53, August 15, 2011 (UTC) : :Also in addition you keep inplying the statment about "I just wanna have fun" players. Since they do not understand game mechanics as we do. However on the main page you gave a link to the "accuracy" page which explains itself with formulas/equations and alot of mechanics. :Now how do you expect these "I just wanna have fun" players to make out one single idea up from that? :Frankly it'll be (for them) even more confusing then a simple -100% rating on the Hydra main page. I... I am the King! 09:15, August 15, 2011 (UTC) ::The problem is that the entire Mechanics section of the wiki was written by and for users that have the dedication to delve into this stuff. Yes, it is 'effing complicated, but that's just the way it is, it can't be dumbed down. I understand you don't want invest time to understand all that crap, which is why there is an entire "Usage and Description" section, which explains in great human-english details all the traits of the weapon, and how to use it. It also mentions how inaccurate the weapon actually is. happypal (talk • ) 14:51, August 16, 2011 (UTC) :::That's my point: human-English details. In human-English, -100% Spread means no Spread at all means perfect Accuracy. But it's not true. Rather, the final and practical effect of a Carnage Hydra is a Carnage that shoots much more precisely than its non-Hydra brethren. I was the one who replaced "-100% Spread" with "higher Accuracy".--Mensahero 09:22, August 17, 2011 (UTC) ::@ Grimmjow JAegerjaquez- Of course I linked to it. Where else was I supposed to go to understand what that "-100% spread" meant? And right there, right on top, it said that Spread and Accuracy are practically the same. From there I based my understanding of Carnage Hydras that led me to be happy to get one, and later sadly discover it wasn't so. ::That's exactly the same thing that other people will do when they read "-100% spread". And they're going to be jumping around the wiki, confusing themselves and carrying inaccurate information because it was insisted that "-100% Spread" be what appeared on the Wiki when it's actually a hidden mechanical modifier rather than the actual and final accuracy of Carnage Shotguns. ::Again, if that "-100% Spread" appears, many readers looking up Carnage Hydras are going to think that is the actual value of its accuracy, and not what's presented on its card. They're going to continue thinking that all Carnage Hydra are bugged to have perfect Accuracy. If they get one, they're going to think that this wiki is grossly mistaken. And even if it's explained here, it's a poor wiki article that doesn't explain quickly and concisely in the main article the bottom line of a gun. ::--Mensahero 09:22, August 17, 2011 (UTC) :::If you had read the actual article (instead of bitching about that single line of text), then you'd have realize that: :::#The article states that Hydras actually have a bad accuracy, and you should not read its accuracy rating. :::#There is a section specifically dedicated to to carnage hydras, which mentions they have "better" accuracy. Not "perfect" accuracy. :::If you want to make assumptions out of something you do not understand, completely ignoring the actual article you actually got said information from, then that is your own problem. I'm not worried other readers will make the same mistake, most have common sense. happypal (talk • ) 13:54, August 17, 2011 (UTC) ::::No. ::::First, both the older and updated version of the article don't say anything about Hydras having bad accuracy. It just says that one should ignore the Accuracy rating because of its fixed projectile pattern. In fact, it even says it has "reduced spread". ::::Second, no, the Carnage Hydra article didn't actually say it has "better" accuracy. It specifically and only said "-100% Spread". Alone, that piece of information is only relevant to people with Gear Calculator and is unseen while playing Borderlands. ::::As I pointed out to Grimmjow, to keep it like that, to limit the information only to people with Gear Calculator, is to limit the information on this Wiki only to people with 3rd party addons and only applies to people who want to dissect the game down to its minutae- even where it's not required to play Borderlands! It's limiting useful information to the elite and hardcore who, by virtue of being experienced and knowledgeable, don't even need the info to begin with! The ones who do need the info are casual, new and inexperienced players. ::::As far as criticizing me for "not reading the article", I saw the original version of the Hydra page, compared stats between the Carnage Hydra and non-Hydra Carnages, even put up a video to show how Carnage Hydras fire. I did my due diligence. And I'm doing my part in making this wiki accessible to as many readers as possible, rather than reveling in any particularly elitist knowledge that remains the possession of only the hardcore. ::::Lastly, it's not just my problem. As far as the article can remain misleading with that "-100% spread", it remains the problem of everyone: each and every person who comes to this wiki to read and goes away to play Borderlands thinking ::::a) ignore the Accuracy rating of a Hydra, including Carnage Hydras because ::::b) they actually have -100% spread- look the wiki says so! ::::And as we are the people maintaining the wiki and filling up its content, we are responsible for that, not just making sure the info is accurate but that anyone can read it, understand and use it. ::::--Mensahero 03:53, August 18, 2011 (UTC) If i may interject, I will not pretend to understand the mechanics of the game to the degree that you folks do. As a person who is in that "play for the fun of it" group the -100% spread is misleading to the average player. That being said, the Mechanics sections were written and added for those that understand or want to understand the actual mechanics of the game. Perhaps what needs to be done is to rewrite/reword the section of the artical that deals with the ordinary wiki user the explain the workings of the weapon in a way that wont be so easy to confuse with the mechanics section. I will make an attempt to see what people think. 04:41, August 18, 2011 (UTC) :The truth is that this argument started not because of a miss-conception on accuracy, but on what "-100%" actually means. For example, the Hyperion Destroyer#Mechanics gets -130% spread. This is the same missconception as Brick's "Reduced damage". If you want to know how these -X% numbers mean, please visit stat modifiers. happypal (talk • ) 07:04, August 18, 2011 (UTC) :I thank you.. very much. I... I am the King! 21:07, August 18, 2011 (UTC)